Originally by: teji

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/07/2008 17:21:22
There is major problem now. CALDARI

Their missiles are faster than new "nano" HACs. As an anti-everything weapon they are going to evaporate all cruisers. Fix?

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Caldari-online intended. Save yourself the trouble of finding fun things to do in the game. Just train for Drake and Ravens. This is what ccp wants.

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Originally by: Dzajic

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Originally by: Kaylana Syi

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Some thoughts about the changes. I like what you are trying to achieve. However I have some very large concerns in the implementation. First off, I think that the skirmish warfare leadership tree is now pretty irrelevant. Having a good chunk of my leadership trained in information warfare and skirmish, nearly at the mindlink levels, that 25% isn't enough.

I would dare say 37.5% speed increase from the maximum output one can have is more fair.

Also, the new Warp Scrambler is completely broken. I agree with turning off MWD's so you will think twice about fitting it but with 2 points and low cap use it is now a god module. It should be a high cap use item that turns off mwd's but sacrifices web range on normal ships. It puts the gallente recons back in the game but it shouldn't hand it to them on a silver platter.

Also, please consider releasing some changes to the Black Ops working in jammed systems and making cyno jammers not work in tandem with jump bridges so roaming gangs in 0.0 are not facing an even bigger brick wall.

That is all, for now.

-KS

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Gallente recons primary Ewar is still omgnerfed...

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Originally by: Haakelen

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Originally by: Grath Telkin

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EDIT: so no alliance tourney this summer AND your raping a whole style of play. Brilliant CCP

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They must be reeeeeally sure of themselves that Vampire MMO is going to pay off.

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Originally by: Orange Faeces

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Originally by: Miriyaka

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Edited by: Miriyaka on 28/07/2008 21:13:03
Everything about this change is heavy-handed and ill-thought out. I'm sure you believe that this makes the game conform more to your grand 'vision', but you don't seem to understand how many new problems it will create for you nor how unattractive it makes part of eve's endgame (hacs, recons, and other T2 ships).

Currently, no HAC can out-tank or out-DPS its tier-1 or tier-2 battlecruiser counterpart (except the zealot, ugh), yet they cost 10-20x as much after insurance (even if you insure the hac, which nobody does for obvious reasons). So, what do they currently offer that these cheap, easy-to-fit battlecruisers or battleships don't? Speed. Not ridiculous speed, but just enough speed to keep missiles from quickly annihilating them, or to keep a pulse Zealot's damage low enough so they can run away (seriously what the hell is with pulse zealots, fix locus rigs already) before instantly exploding.

This ridiculous set of changes takes that away, and in turn takes away an entire style of play that involves being fast enough to disengage but not so fast that you're invulnerable. Fix the top 1% of the speed spectrum (snakes etc, but please not so clumsily as to render them useless), make afterburners more attractive options rather than making MWDs less attractive. Mass mods worked fine, simply bring their percentages in line with everything else. Gang bonuses were fine except when combined with snakes - making all ships so high-mass and unagile that the 15% mindlink agility bonus is needed to orbit at a reasonable speed is extremely shortsighted.

In game design, boosting is always better than nerfing, especially with broad changes - this is something your customer base should not have to tell you.

Edit - what I mean to say is that you should give players more options for countering high-speed ships-- not that there aren't a whole slew of them already with rapiers/huginns, curses, battleship neuts, bubbles, bait traps, etc etc-- rather than decapitating an entire style of play.

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This.

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Originally by: Grath Telkin

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Originally by: KingCappo

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Care to show me a nano-vaga that puts out 500 DPS?

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He can't, he doesn't play EVE, he plays EFT

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Originally by: LuthienTinuviel

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So was going to do some testing in FD- on test don't really see much ****ing point tbh given the reaction of the CCP representative there and there obvious predisposition to speed and also his obvious assumption that ALL fighting is done by nano's.

Quote:

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[ 2008.07.28 21:58:09 ] ElweSingollo > still a dev though and sorry but basing your changes on what a minority of the eve population can actually affor i.e. high grade snakes is ******ed
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:29 ] sopmac1 > ouch
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:30 ] Kanx Alanks > elwesingollo you have no clue what your talking about
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:30 ] Yowin > who the hell is going to use a huginn over a rapier now?
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:36 ] Yowin > no tank, no speed
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:38 ] The Judge > ships were too fast without snakes in still
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:42 ] Aria Selenis > Whats a huginn.
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:43 ] nimbadhe > i need shield :P
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] Captator > hehe atropos you must put up with a lot of this? ^^
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:50 ] Dante Reborn > lol webs are useless now
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:54 ] Kanx Alanks > rofl you DIDNT NEED SNAKES to hit 6km before learn the godamn game
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed
[ 2008.07.28 21:59:00 ] Captator > it isn't defacto
[ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really

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So yeha is there really any point whatsoever in testing things out when that is your attitude CCP and this is coming form a person who has exactly one ship thats nanoed and no Snake set (which CCP seem to assume that the majority of players have.

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Originally by: LuthienTinuviel

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Originally by: Miriyaka

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Since when is speed the defacto method of fighting? What?

Only a tiny minority of players use speed-fit HACs, probably 10-20% in 0.0 and sub-1% in empire. I see far more battleships, BCs, cruisers, and interceptors already in a normal day of roaming in all areas of 0.0, than I do HACs, and not all of those HACs are speed-tanking, many are snipers.

Where is Mr. Atropos getting his statistics that clearly show speed as the defacto method of fighting? From people posting on the forums whining about being ganked by a Vagabond while ratting or moving around lowsec?

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Dunno but being honest after that little local discussion I logged off in disgust I am not going to waste my time testing stuff on SISI when CCP spout that crap I have two months left on my accounts sub's if the CCP continues in this tac then I guess I will not be renewing my accounts and no you can't have my stuff guys ;P.

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Originally by: Grath Telkin

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Edited by: Grath Telkin on 28/07/2008 22:28:59

Originally by: LuthienTinuviel

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[ 2008.07.28 21:58:34 ] CCP Atropos > sigh
? ^^
[ 2008.07.28 21:58:45 ] CCP Atropos > it's simple really

[ 2008.07.28 21:58:52 ] CCP Atropos > when it becomes the de facto method for fighting

[ 2008.07.28 21:58:55 ] CCP Atropos > it needs ot be nerfed

[ 2008.07.28 21:59:02 ] CCP Atropos > simple as really

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Originally by: Vision Threads

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Edited by: Vision Threads on 28/07/2008 22:53:42

Originally by: Miriyaka

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Strangely enough, the FOTM right now isn't speed. It's the locus-rigged Zealot and Apoc, which utterly dominate both fleet and small-gang combat right now. The super-faction HML nano-Sacrilege w/ Snakes weighs in at a distant third.

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Originally by: Miriyaka

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If CCP is genuinely concerned about the Sacrilege, Ishtar, and other perma-MWD HACs being able to outrun slower HACs or avoid missile damage, then address those problems specifically, leaving alone ships whose obvious role is speed.

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Haha the FOTM chasers always spout the same thing when it's time for their i-win button to be nerfed: "It's not MY thing that's overpowered, it's the other guy's! Nerf him, not me! Nerf ANYONE but me! Please! Please! Please! It's not FAIR!"

Just take your medicine like a big boy.

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Originally by: Lt Angus

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Originally by: Ushatuhkwa Kaeshe

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I'm totally feeling pangs of SOE and NGE out of this. For the love of god don't go through with the changes as they are on SiSi.

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I very much doubt these changes will get to TQ, its all too ludicrous

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Originally by: Thorradin

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Every ship has an ECCM taped on it? I find more have sensor boosters fit than ECCM, but whatever. Even on dedicated boats, you need to fit alot of stuff to make the mods viable, and if you fit ECM on a non-ECM boat (like speed tanking a HAC), it might be alittle useful, but it's not the omgbbq that you get from nano setups. A decent example but not quite the same level of pain (anymore) as nano fitting ships not meant for it.

And no, HACS were not designed to be speed tanked. If a circle object has a hard time fitting the circle hole, you don't reshape it into a square, do you?

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Originally by: goodnight

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all those arguing with thorradin -> he's not even 5 months old. cheers.

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Originally by: Thorradin

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Originally by: Haakelen

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Edited by: Haakelen on 28/07/2008 23:23:48
Way to not read. I said every ship bigger than a BC. If you're flying a RR BS, and you don't fit ECCM, you're a moron. I've been tempted to put an ECCM on my Ishtar once or twice because it seems like everyone and his ****ing dog has a ****ing Falcon alt they can use to **** up any situation they desire.

If HACs weren't designed for Guerilla warfare, what the **** point do they have? Tier 2 BCs outclass them in every way. They have literally no purpose if you get your way.

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Every ship bigger than a BC doesn't have an ECCM taped on it, if you're going to throw a tantrum because I didn't specify then go right ahead.

The Falcon having issues is still nothing but a vain attempt of trying to save nanohacs from being balanced. Again, if people have issues with the falcon, raise them and push for CCP to look into them and get them tweaked.

You'll have to ask CCP what HACs were designed for, it's not like they wee designed recently, and given their layouts, speed sure as hell doesn't come to mind for their design ideas.

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Originally by: Thorradin

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Originally by: goodnight

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all those arguing with thorradin -> he's not even 5 months old. cheers.

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This just in, age of a character doesn't make valid points somehow invalid. Nice try though, but you aren't the first.

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Originally by: Moon Kitten

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This patch is amazing for two simple reasons.

1. The Merlin is a lot faster.
2. Incursus is also faster.

Good Job CCP

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Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda

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Have the trollers and whiners in this thread (thanks for the lawls, by the way) realized that CCP has thrown the kitchen sink at the issue and what you see right this moment is not exactly what you're going to get?

These changes are a bit heavy-handed, but the balance between classes feels right. The speeds just got nerfed a bit too far. But the overall relativity, the sort that I last felt around the Cold War patch, is there.

I think that a couple of the changes need to be removed or scaled back. The first is the reactivation delay for microwarps; certain ships such as the Vagabond depend on bursting this module and as such I don't believe it's a great idea to make it sit idle for 10 seconds. The other thing to do is to set the base speeds of ships back to the way they were, and increase speeds on interdictors. Make sure that light craft such as interceptors can not be worried about being hit for much damage by T2 precision missiles.

Maybe also think about reversing the 50% range between T1 and T2 MWDs. It may help certain ships get back into the sweet spot of speed.

But I really like these general idea of the changes. If anyone wants to flame me for doing so, know that after this post I won't be looking at this thread or your whines again.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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Originally by: Taya Tal

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CCP fail even more.

http://images.goonfleet.com/images/ccp/2007.05.25.15.19.48.jpg

http://images.goonfleet.com/images/ccp/CCP%20charkbait%202.png

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oh god that was so long ago.

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Originally by: Thorradin

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Originally by: Taya Tal

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Originally by: Thorradin

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Originally by: goodnight

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all those arguing with thorradin -> he's not even 5 months old. cheers.

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This just in, age of a character doesn't make valid points somehow invalid. Nice try though, but you aren't the first.

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Yes it does. Now get out.

Door that way

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I know I'm making a point when I get alts only a few days older than me trying to act big. If you're a main, then you have even less ground to stand on.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/07/2008 00:46:06
Seriously, I just have to laugh at everyone crying about their poor snake sets. Get over it, they were completely broken, and you knew that perfectly well when you decided to buy those broken implants. I guess now you'll actually have to get some skill, instead of just ebaying tons of ISK and buying yourself a win button?

The simple fact is, snakes/polycarbons have been KILLING solo/small-gang PvP in this game.

If you're solo, you either fly a nano ship, or die to a nano ship.

If you're in a small gang, you either fly nano ships, fly anti-nano ships that suck against anything other than nano ships (light missile Cerberus = lol), or you die to nano ships.

When you have a setup/strategy that's this completely dominant, there's a problem. I don't know if any of you have ever played competitive Magic (the card game), but most people understand that when a strategy gets too dominant, it needs to be dealt with. Even if there are counters, the fact that the game turns into nothing but "A" and "anti-A" means things are unbalanced and not fun. Sure, everyone abuses it while they can, but nobody is surprised when cards start getting banned.

Only in EVE have I seen this sense of "I bought my win button for 99999999999999999999999999 ISK, how dare you nerf it!!!!" entitlement. Just get over it, it's better for the game in the long run.

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Originally by: Daan Sai

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Edited by: Daan Sai on 29/07/2008 03:36:51
I don't mind slowing down the speeds, but my biggest problem has been the impact on align times and accelleration. Are locking times going to be looked at? Right now on SiSi camp runners are having a hard time.

My suggestions:
1) delete MWDs altogether, and boost ABs a bit - having two speed modules has always been problematic.
2) reasses masses with base agility in mind, not just speed
3) look at how targeting times compare to align and acceleration times

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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imho

Rigged mwd, all level 5 char with t2 mods nano fitted...

Ceptors - 6-7kms
Frigs/Assualt frigs 3-5kms
CC/HAC's 2.5-3kms
CS/BC's 1.6-2kms
BS 0.9-1.2kms

With snakes, or gang mods bearly allowing the class below to overlap the speeds with the class faster.

The problem before was just stupid caldari HAM spammers, been easily able to outrun ships of classes larger than you and the fact there was just too much overlap between the classes of ships even using afterburners.

Now, everything is just too slow and sluggish to be practical

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Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai

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Originally by: Bobbechk

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Originally by: carleyjones

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Originally by: Grakkus

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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Originally by: Lilith Velkor

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The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed.

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ding ding ding, we have a winner

I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is.

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Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue

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Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far

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requated 3rd time cuz this is what they should do.

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Quoted a FOURTH time becasue this is what i believe they should do as well. The worst offender is the srcam change and MWD whack

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